Terrorism - Defined

[PunjabiAssassin]

I've been doing alot of research and am recently taking a class on Terrorism. We all know what it is, or at least we think we know. But scholars have had a very hard time trying to define it. Because everyone knows it when they see it, everyone has their own definition of it. It starts to become subjective. Before proper analysis could be done on this 50 year or so old phenmenon, we now have politicians who have taken control of the word, and governments around the word use it to describe their enemies and those they wish to discredit, rightly or wrongly.

So I was wondering what people here would term terrorism. Maybe we can at least come up with one thing that we can all agree on that could be seen as terrorist. Potential problems, The same action taken by a terrorist, is sometimnes taken up by someone fighting for the legitimate recognized right for self determination. Also, many acts are also the same ones committed by governments.

Lets try to be objective here. We all have sensitivity towards this to a differing degree, alot of people here have directly been effected by 9/11, and I myself have survived state-sponsored terrorism. So why don't we start out by giving out what we think is a definition of terrorism keeping in mind there is no wrong answer.

[Katie_Scarlett]

Not sure about my definition of terrorism, but I am sure that "a lot" is two words.

[@@di]

Lets try to be objective here. We all have sensitivity towards this to a differing degree, alot of people here have directly been effected by 9/11, and I myself have survived state-sponsored terrorism. So why don't we start out by giving out what we think is a definition of terrorism keeping in mind there is no wrong answer.

Please elaborate, how did you survive state-sponsored terrorism?
I am just curious. This is not an attempt to belittle you in any way. Since you brought it up...

I have much to say but am too tired [therefore slighly incoherent] to put any of my thoughts down.

Gist: Defining terrorism is like a zen koan. Its going to take a very long time just to find out that there is no answer. Well bad analogy, some koans do have answers...[philosophical smilie]

[Nic]

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. One person's terrorist outrage is another person's collateral damage. The definition depends on whether you think the objective is legitimate or not, although personally I have difficulty with any objective that involves killing people who are not explicitly seeking to take one's life or liberty.

[PunjabiAssassin]

Please elaborate, how did you survive state-sponsored terrorism?
I am just curious. This is not an attempt to belittle you in any way. Since you brought it up...

I have much to say but am too tired [therefore slighly incoherent] to put any of my thoughts down.

Gist: Defining terrorism is like a zen koan. Its going to take a very long time just to find out that there is no answer. Well bad analogy, some koans do have answers...[philosophical smilie]

1988, Operation Black Thunder I believe it was dubbed. The Indian government does a second round of Blue Star, but in a most specialized way, using commandos and snipers. Thats the official tale. I was there when the Indian police shot indiscriminantly at families as they tried to leave the Golden Temple Complex. The Indian media will lead you to believe it was much more targeted, hitting terrorists hiding in the Complex. I can't say if there were militants in there or not, but I'll never forget some of those innocents shot down while running out of the Complex by the indian police and taunting us to come back and die like martyrs. I assume they were indian police because of the brown uniforms, they may have been military. Others we met along the way called them indian police also.

[PunjabiAssassin]

I think being British somehow helped us get out. Oh how I love my Red and Gold passport :)

[@@di]

1988, Operation Black Thunder I believe it was dubbed. The Indian government does a second round of Blue Star, but in a most specialized way, using commandos and snipers. Thats the official tale. I was there when the Indian police shot indiscriminantly at families as they tried to leave the Golden Temple Complex. The Indian media will lead you to believe it was much more targeted, hitting terrorists hiding in the Complex. I can't say if there were militants in there or not, but I'll never forget some of those innocents shot down while running out of the Complex by the indian police and taunting us to come back and die like martyrs. I assume they were indian police because of the brown uniforms, they may have been military. Others we met along the way called them indian police also.

For all those who have no idea what Operation Blue Star or Black Thunder was, here is a brief introduction:

The rise of a powerful secessionist movement [Khalistan] in Punjab during the decade of 1980s was an unprecedented development in post-independence India. Never before had the independent Indian state experienced such
a serious crisis of political legitimacy as encountered while dealing with the Sikh militants. Though a border state, Punjab had been a quite well integrated part of the country. There had never been any doubts about the nationalist credentials of the Sikhs. Not only did they participate in the nationalist freedom movement with much enthusiasm, the people of Punjab, along with those of Bengal, were also the ones who suffered the most during partition at the time of independence in 1947. No other regions of India had to pay such a price for freedom from colonial rule.

Punjab had contributed so many things to India, food, culture, music, movies etc. Having travelled extensively in Punjab, I only have the nicest things to say about them. They hard working, intelligent and very hospitable people.

Punjab is one the of the richests states in the union having the highest per capita income. It played a very important role in the green revolution of the 60s and 70s. So the secessionist movement came as a surpirse to many. But now that I look back, it doesn't surpirse me. Rich states never want to share in what they have with the poor one. But thats changing now, the Southern states have become economic powerhouses bringing a balance to the once powerful northern states.

As with all movements it started get more violent. It also started to receive a lot of funding from overseas Sikhs [mainly from UK, Canada and the US]. It also became apparent to Pakistan that helping the Khalistani movement would prove beneficial in destablising India. The movement was provided with arm, ammunition and intelligence from the ISI [Pak version of the CIA, same folks who helped Al Qaeda beat the Russians and who continue to help Kashmiri militants].

Through the early 80s this militant force killed countless law abiding citizens, blew up govt office and generally killed anyone that opposed the secessionist movement etc. The leaders of this movement used religious symbolbs to ide behind. They took shelter in one of the most revered Sikh temple, the Golden Temple. From here they drew up hit lists, execution plans etc.
Equal blames lies on the Indian govt for doing very little to bring this movement to an end peacefully. They did too little and then did too much too late. In 1984 Indira Gandhi ordered the army and police to flush out the militants. It turned out be nightmare. Many innocent, law-abiding worshippers were killed but over 400 terrorists were captured, many of them with Pakistani passports!.

A few months later Indira Gandhi was assassinated by a Sikh bodyguard. For 4 days New Delhi became possibly the most lawless place in the world. Thousands of Sikhs were massacred. Some of the politicans are still around and in power :eek:. I was mortified then as I am now.

In 1988, Operation Black Thunder was initiated to flush out more militants who has taken refuge in the Golden Temple. This time far fewer innocents were killed and the operation was a greater success than the 1984 BLue Star operation.

6 years later the movement died and Punjabis now are worried about better roads, better schools etc. Punjabis rejected the Khalistan movement because it was hijacked a few power hungry people.
There are a few org. in the US, Canada and UK that are trying to resurrect the movement. They seems to have been caught in a time warp. India and Punjab have moved on, but they seem to be stuck in the 80s.


I think being British somehow helped us get out. Oh how I love my Red and Gold passport :)

Oh in case you didn't know PJA the British and the mughlas killed far more Sikhs than the Indian police/army.

Why do the British still hang on to N. Ireland? If you supported an independent Punjab then you should support a free N Ireland.

Like Katie rightly pointed out you have to feel like a victim, like the whole world is against you. You should go on Oprah.

[PunjabiAssassin]

I can understand your jaded view on the movement. It's understandable, the press was completely controlled by the govt, very little imformation trickled out that was unbiased. Pakistani support are common alligations that were made. I've done alot of reading into the movement, and it appears that any credible support came post 1984. Read on it through scholars, not newspapers and you'll get a different view.

As for me being the victim, I stated before I have no need to be seen as one! Stuff happens to everyone, so far I've been much more fortunate than the vast majority of others in the world, so to plead victim doesn't make much sense for me. That doesn't mean to say that I can't be pissed at the punk kids who took my car! As for the Indian Government, you have much to learn about the atrocities they have committed under the guise of democracy, well documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Int'l. The only reason you heard things from the UK and the US was because that's the only place from where they could speak, in Punjab they were sure as dead. My extended family was in Punjab through the militant movement, and what they saw and what was retold in the papers was remarkably different, as if they were two different events. This is not to say that the so called Khalistanis weren't also criminal. Towards the end of the movement, in the late 80's and 90's the movment basically became criminal and lost all support it had in the community. The visionaries were dead or in hiding, and the low level men got power hungry.

India has alot of political cleaning up to do, for one stop spreading ethnic and religious hatred.

But we're hijacking this thread!! We can talk about this through Private Message if you'd like, or a different thread. I'd like to keep this on trying to define terrorism.

[PunjabiAssassin]

Oh in case you didn't know PJA the British and the mughlas killed far more Sikhs than the Indian police/army.

Why do the British still hang on to N. Ireland? If you supported an independent Punjab then you should support a free N Ireland.



Yeah, I know they did, Mughals more than any other! Two particular events are called the 'Large Genocide' and the 'Smaller Genocide' because pretty much they had whipped us out. I fully support everyone's right to self-determination. If Texas wants to be free, let The Lone Star state give it a shot. Every 'nation' as the right to self-governace, whether they choose to exercise it or not is another matter. Theirs about 5000 different ethnicities in the world, that would be a confusing UN meeting :)

P.S. You asked me about the State Terrorism, so don't use my response to justify your view that I am portraying myself as a victim.

[Nic]

Britain doesn't "hang on" to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a democratic province within the United Kingdom which has consistently determined to be part of the UK at the ballot box. A significant minority of the population would like to see Northern Ireland as part of the Republic of Ireland (Eire), but it is a minority. I'm not sure a majority of people in Eire would welcome their neigbours in the North joining them, while conversely a majority of people on the British mainland would sooner the North did!

The Catholic population of Northern Ireland is increasing faster than the Protestant population, and it is largely (but not entirely) on religious lines the community divides. It is only a matter of time before the Catholics constitute a majority. That will be an interesting time.

For info the same fault lines run through Scottish society, but the Catholic population is much smaller and secessionist ambitions do not as closely follow religious lines. However at Celtic v Rangers football matches the presence of Irish triclours and Union Jacks reflect the same religious and nationalist divides.

[luce e simbolo]

For info the same fault lines run through Scottish society, but the Catholic population is much smaller and secessionist ambitions do not as closely follow religious lines. However at Celtic v Rangers football matches the presence of Irish triclours and Union Jacks reflect the same religious and nationalist divides.

Not surprising, given that several hundreds of years ago, many Scots were imported by Britain to the six counties to settle there.

[anita]

as batman proved yesterday, even superheroes dabble in pretend terrorism :D