Wingmen/women

[Katie_Scarlett]

Okay, I'll start this thread up. . . question, what do you all think about having a wingman or wingwoman?

As a female, I can't stand having a wingwoman, but I won't think twice about talking to 2 guys that come up. Wingwoman are obstacles in my mind - I two go talk to a guy with her, and he could prefer my flirty friend over me. Boo. But, if two guys come over, then I have double the selection & double the fun.

What do you all think?

[PunjabiAssassin]

From my understanding of a wingman it works like this.

You see a FINNEEE ass women... problem is she's got a friend that seems to be stuck to her, and will pull her away from YOU.

So you got the wingman, his sole purpose in life is to make you look good to her, and talk to the her friend to occupy her time...

The premise here is that Women travel in packs, and need to be sparated out because her 'friends' will make it hard for you to be alone with the one you want.

From my experience, I've never seen Men pull a friend away from a girl he likes?

So what's the need for a wingwoman? Excuse me if I'm wrong but that's how I understood Wingmen to work...

[LostinLaMancha]

Wingwoman are obstacles in my mind - I two go talk to a guy with her, and he could prefer my flirty friend over me. Boo.....
What do you all think?

I think your English is wrong. I two? What is that supposed to mean?

[Katie_Scarlett]

Lost- to. It should have said to. I go to talk to a guy. . . whatever. :rolleyes:

Punjabi-I hear you about two men coming up to draw a woman away from the herd. But you men sometimes are in two's and three's and then we have to find the ugliest chick in our group to be our wingman, or enter it alone. :D

[Nic]

But do you go out on your own? Surely a wingman/woman is as much a companion while you're NOT chatting to the opposite sex as a foil when you are?

[Katie_Scarlett]

No I don't go out all by my lonesome. Actually I enjoy and prefer the company of my male friends to most of my female friends, so I end up going out with one of them and meeting no one. :( So sad, really. But I meet plenty of people through my friends and that's how I date.

Anyway, nowadays, I live in Hoboken and I find the bar scene there tends to be filled with insipid yuppy twits who are only too happy to talk about their jobs, their career prospects, their wallets and their cars. So for now, I don't find it necessary to "pick a guy up in a bar." If I wanted to hear that stuff, I'd probably go out with my girlfriends and try to attract a man.

[demiking]

This is the first time that I ever heard of the term "wingmen/women" though from the definition posted I surely am familiar with the scenario. Personally, I agree with Harry (When Harry Met Sally) that men and women cannot truly be friends unless there is no sexual attraction. So I don't necessarily believe that women prefer to hang out with their guy friends over their girl friends. Since I come from a family of four girls, I just don't understand that mentality when women say they would want to hang out with men instead of women. If you want to have sex, then I want to be with a man, if I want to have a good conversation, then I want to be with my girl friends.

[Nic]

Demiking, with respect for your point of view I couldn't disagree more. In the workplace it is perfectly possible to have friends of the opposite sex and to treat members of the opposite sex professionally as one would members of one's own sex. Personally, I have as many female friends as male friends. Some of my female friends I've had relationships with in the past, some not, some I fancy, some I don't. I know gay men, they know I don't swing that way but for all I know I might be the subject of their sexual fantasies. Who cares? Come to that, do you think gay men and women can only have true friendship with gay members of the opposite sex - I think that's where your logic takes you.

I was fortunate to have had siblings of both sexes, maybe that's what makes us think differently. I therefore can understand the mentality of people who do have opposite sex friends they hang out with. It's nothing to do with NOT having sexual attraction, it's about being confident around members of the opposite sex.

And Harry and Sally are pretty dysfunctional individuals to use to illustrate a point, don't you think?

[demiking]

I saw CNN Presents that discussed infidelity. One of the counselors stated that the workplace is the primary place where affairs begin. It is common for friendships to cross the boundary and become illicit affairs. Conversations about the weather develop into more personal topics in which "friends" discuss problems with their partners and/or sex. If you are not attracted to the male or female person you are speaking with (regardless of your sexual orientation) the conversation will go nowhere. If you ARE attracted, the potential for that conversation to become more than talk is possible. But it takes two people interested. Now is a friendship possible? Sure, anything is possible.

As to your other point regarding modeling people in general to Sally and Harry -- most people are dysfunctional. I believe that society establishes an impossible ideal and most people try to live their lives by that ideal. Unfortunately, these standards are usually unrealistic labeling most people dysfunctional.

[Harley]

"When Harry Met Sally" poses the question, can men and women be friends? or will that friendship lead to something more. Possibly, another way of looking at the premise for "Harry Met Sally" is that the most lasting marriages are based on friendship, hardly a dysfunctional notion. I agree with Demiking that society creates ideals, but in reality human beings are imperfect. However, we are not dysfunctional, not as long as we make our lives work for us. ;)

[Nic]

Yea, fair comment. I guess I didn't mean Harry and Sally were dysfunctional in a general way. Most of us are one way or the other. I have few rules but one is to never date somebody you know from the workplace. There have been times I've been tempted to break it, but its probably saved me from situations I would rather not be in. I have, however, over the years built up a network of successful female friends whose company I enjoy and whose advice and insights I value.

[Katie_Scarlett]

I just don't enjoy big groups of girls. I think that when you have more than 2 girls out and about, you end up with cattiness etc, that you don't find when it's a big group of men. Ergo, I infinitely prefer hanging out with 5-7 guy friends than 5-7 girlfriends. I didn't say women weren't the ones to talk to, on the contrary I enjoy having girlfriends and talking to them, I just enjoy having guy friends to hang out with.

As for sexual attraction - believe you me that I have plenty of men friends that are not in my fantasies. And I think that I'm probably not entering their fantasies either!

[@@di]

I just don't enjoy big groups of girls. I think that when you have more than 2 girls out and about, you end up with cattiness etc, that you don't find when it's a big group of men. Ergo, I infinitely prefer hanging out with 5-7 guy friends than 5-7 girlfriends. I didn't say women weren't the ones to talk to, on the contrary I enjoy having girlfriends and talking to them, I just enjoy having guy friends to hang out with.

As for sexual attraction - believe you me that I have plenty of men friends that are not in my fantasies. And I think that I'm probably not entering their fantasies either!

Katie:
Don't you ever wonder if any of your guy friends are actually attracted to you? or if there is some latent sexual attraction ? Doesn't a part of becoming friends with a guy involve some kind of attraction between the two fo you?

[Katie_Scarlett]

Nope. I have plenty of guy friends that I'm not and never was attracted to. I've slept with the ones I was attracted to, if the feeling was reciprocated, and the rest are just buddies.

[PunjabiAssassin]

I think this is a general rule of thumb, but feel free to disagree (I know you will :))

1. Guys are friends with girls they are attracted to at some level.
2. Sometimes guys are friends with girls they aren't attracted to because the girl has attractive friends :)
3. The only time this fails to hold is in club/organization/work settings. You are forced to interact with the opposite sex, and realize that there is more to a women than looks and love interacting with her personality. Then you got some true friends albeit, possibly unattractive.

Girls if your guy friends TRUELY don't have a thing for you and you didn't meet them by forced encounter...... then you're the unattractive one. (sorry :p )

[sanity]

?

I have many female friends where the relationship is simple friendship outside of any organization, and they aren't unattractive either.

There is no rule of thumb as this varies from person to person. I think the reason why you might think a rule exist is that people who tend to think such a rule exists tend to only hang out with members of their own gender and only encounter members of the other gender who also believe in the rule. Whereas people for whom the rule does not exist, naturally don't.

[PunjabiAssassin]

All my friends are girls except 2...and I don't remember how I met some of them, but most of them through different organizations. So I fit into catergory 3 :)

People are way to serious on this board. It was a joke....

[Katie_Scarlett]

PJA- You may be on to something with your post. Since I think that most men are pigs, that would make complete sense. :D Okay, I was kidding, only some men are pigs, the rest are dogs. :rolleyes:WOOF. :eek:

[zipbow]

for some reason, even though sometimes I started out in the first group, I tend to end up in the third group soon after that....

The pros... some really good friends I can talk to and share things with
The cons... here I am in the single forum.... :o

[wishiwas]

I was in a sorority in college so I've had my fair share of interaction/living with large groups of women. Heck, I even lived in a sorority house with around 25 other women. Glad those times are over!

Now I work in a male-dominated field and I would have it no other way.

Glass ceilings, here I come!

[PunjabiAssassin]

Hai!

You're the first women I know who's awaiting the glass ceiling! You need to slap some of them around, break that glass ceiling...

[Nic]

What's a sorority? It sounds fun. Can I join one?

[wishiwas]

Nic,

Have you ever heard of a sorority or a fraternity? They are social organizations (during one's college years).

Have you ever seen the movie Animal House?


And to Punjabi,

I have no other choice than to break the glass ceilings. My claim to fame (hah) is that I was once featured in a USA Today article regarding women in male-dominated fields and glass ceilings.

[Nic]

Fraternity or sorority, no heard the terms but don't know what they mean. Fraternity sounds like it means boys, but if you get to share a house with 30 women I think I'd sooner know more about sororities. I saw a book in B&N claimed to tell the whole truth about them, but it read boring when I flicked the pages. No, never saw Animal House, it sounded like bollocks. I saw "Naria full of Grace" last, that was a good movie. It featured NJ, albeit briefly.

[Nic]

I am doing a doctorate in the field of diversity, and there is clear evidence that companies with higher levels of female representation at board level do better than companies wih lower levels, irresapective of industry sectors.

Glass ceilings will one day be a thing of the past, companies with them will simply fail, but it might take some time to get there.


I have no other choice than to break the glass ceilings. My claim to fame (hah) is that I was once featured in a USA Today article regarding women in male-dominated fields and glass ceilings.

[wishiwas]

Nic,

I think glass ceilings may someday be a thing of the past, but not in our lifetimes.

[Nic]

Being an optimistic, I think you're wrong. 100 hundred years ago women didn't have the vote, 30 years ago they had virtually no civil rights or representation. The world is moving faster, and companies that want to succeed have to attract the best talent, and countries that want the best companies will need to create the right environment.

I give it 20 years in Europe, about the same on the US seaboards. I still plan to be around then.

[wishiwas]

Take a look at the statistics for post-graduate degrees in science/math/engineering in the US.

Look at the number of female doctorates awarded versus male doctorates awarded in those fields.

The data will scare you.

But we are slowly (very slowly?) moving in the right direction.

[Nic]

Men and women work differently. A lot of science is based on positivist approaches which tend to favour skills men are strong at, I suspect men may tend to dominate some science postgrad rolls for some time just as the fastest athlete on the planet is likely to be a man. Women however are stronger in many of the emergent skills and ethnographic type approaches to problem-solving and innovation. I actually believe CEO-type skills of the future will tend to favour women, and over time women will actually outnumber men in top positions.

[wishiwas]

Men and women work differently. A lot of science is based on positivist approaches which tend to favour skills men are strong at

How very sexist of you! Shame on you, Nic!

I am a scientist and curious about which skills you think men are inherently strong at?

Your post seemed like you were nicely phrasing that "men make better scientists" and to that I would take offense.

[Nic]

Was I being sexist? I'm afraid I'm only PC when I have to be, I don't think being PC is a very progressive trait even if necessary in US business circles (but not European ones, for reasons i won't go into but which I think are interesting in comparison). I do think there are differences between the sexes. To say "men are stronger than women, I need strong employees, therefore I will only employ men" is fallatious, not sexist, because the average man is stronger than the average woman - but I know women stronger than me and would question whether strength is actually required in the case in point and would never assume a man is stronger than a woman. To say "I only employ men because women will only distract them" is sexist, but judging by the comments on this thread, I'm the least sexist poster so far!

I don't doubt that you are a smarter scientist than me, I have no problems with that. On MBTI, a fairly accurate tool (well, perhaps flawed, but based on good science), 70% of men are "Thinkers" (predominantly using reasoning, logic, and verifiable experience) whilst women are "Feelers" 70% of the time. The last Board I was a member of was 50/50 men and women, but not one woman on MBTI had a stronger tendancy towards Feeling. Not surprisingly, I work for a very science-based company.

[wishiwas]

I am definitely a Thinker and not a Feeler.

But I don't like sweeping generalizations about gender/ability, especially in my field. If everyone believed your sources at face value, I would never be employed!

[demiking]

Wishiwas it is great to see a woman who is assertive and wishes to take on a male dominated world. Fight on!

As for me, I am a feeler and quite proud of it. I am not interested in breaking any records or trying to impress anyone. I am at ease with men or women but I do distinguish the differences between men and women. Whether these differences are inherent or a result of centuries of socialization is of little consequence. Women are the true minority of the world, oppressed for centuries in every culture that exists on this globe. As far as I am concerned, we are going backwards in this country with respect to some of the legislation passed under the Bush administration. I have come to the conclusion that men suppress women because of their dependency to women who give birth. Now if that was all that women could do (which IS a big deal) then you could understand the historical stance that society has taken in regards to women. But the fact that women can do just about anything men can do and give birth is what has them quaking. So that is why we have so many old, white men in the white house interested in women's reproduction and the taliban in Afghanistan having their women wear those burkas.

With this in mind -- I can't stand when women try to put down other women to somehow distinguish themselves as the exception to the emotional, nurturing, female stereotype. Women are inherently STRONG in a way that men will NEVER understand. Your just perpetuting the myth that women are catty and that is why you prefer to hang out with men. I have met women who LOVE sports, want to ride motorcylces and do all these crazy things to PROVE that they are just as good as the guys. Please don't act like men (historically speaking) who have felt the need to put down women in order to feel better about themselves.

[LostinLaMancha]

How very sexist of you! Shame on you, Nic!

I am a scientist and curious about which skills you think men are inherently strong at?


men are better at lying. women better at shopping.

[wishiwas]

LLM: I can both lie and shop. Does that make me a double-threat? :)

[wishiwas]

Your just perpetuting the myth that women are catty and that is why you prefer to hang out with men. I have met women who LOVE sports, want to ride motorcylces and do all these crazy things to PROVE that they are just as good as the guys. Please don't act like men (historically speaking) who have felt the need to put down women in order to feel better about themselves.

Demi, was this directed at me? I never said I prefer to hang out with men so I am confused?


Edit: Katie_Scarlett wrote: "Actually I enjoy and prefer the company of my male friends to most of my female friends..." and "I just don't enjoy big groups of girls. I think that when you have more than 2 girls out and about, you end up with cattiness etc, that you don't find when it's a big group of men." in 2 separate posts so I assume this is in response to her?

[Tara]

After serious consideration, I have concluded that I am a combination: part thinker, part feeler; there is clearly a difference between men and women; and I enjoy being a girl! I have many male friends, whose admiration I appreciate, but I'm still searching for that special someone. On the one hand, I want a career where I can use all my logic, reasoning and analytical skills, but on the other, I want to fall in love and be on cloud nine. I guess I fit Demiking's nurturing, emotional, female stereotype because someday I want to have a husband and family, but I also want to leave my mark on this earth: write a book, plant a tree, or discover the cure for diabetes. Like most women in my generation, I see no reason why women can't have it all. :cool:

[wishiwas]

I am in your generation, Tara, and at the risk of starting a heated debate, I don't believe that women in my (technical) field can have it all.

I am new to my career after spending 8 years in college and graduate school, and I do not honestly think that I can have a successful career (to my high standards) as well as a busy family life at home.

So I've made my decision and I choose my career.

[Katie_Scarlett]

I am in your generation, Tara, and at the risk of starting a heated debate, I don't believe that women in my (technical) field can have it all.

I am new to my career after spending 8 years in college and graduate school, and I do not honestly think that I can have a successful career (to my high standards) as well as a busy family life at home.

So I've made my decision and I choose my career.

I am also in your generation. I have a graduate degree, I spent 7 years (college/grad school) to get where I am. So like you, wiw, I choose my career. I also come out as a thinker on that test. In fact, in a group of 30, I was in the only girl in a group of men to come out the way I did. It was fairly amusing.

As for demiking- I stand behind what I said about women. I think that you're right, women are inherently stronger in a lot of ways because of what we have to do - ie give birth, put up with men - but I fully believe that women are catty by nature and not that fun to hang with in large groups. I'm not putting women down so much as I'm trying to say that men know how to let go and have fun better. They just do.

[Lisa]

Tara,

I'm several generations ahead of you, possibly from your mother's generation. When we came out of college, we entered male dominated professions, and it was much harder to climb the ladder. I'm a physician, and now work as a Hospital Administrator. I'm also married with two kids (boys), and lead a very active life.

Although not all women are nurturing by nature, most are. It's natural for many of us to feel a biological need to give birth. We reach an age when Mother Nature makes us want babies. It's a question of what you want.

Women have repeatedly demonstrated that they can juggle both careers and families, and be successful at both. I think it's smart to complete your education, and work a while before you take the plunge, but definitely go for it. You can have it all.

[@@di]

Here is my two-cents:

Whether you like it or not Men and Women are hard wired differently. For example men, in general, will always be better at spatial skills. Men will also be able to lift more, run faster, jump higher etc. Testasterone and years of hunting have given men an advantage. But there are always going to exceptions to every rule.

But its my opinion that that women make better leaders. I worked for both men and women CEOs, and there is no comparision. In general I found that the women CEOs to be more humble and forthright. I also think they make better leaders/politicians.

I also am saddened by the fact that the US will probably never vote a woman into the White House in my lifetime. Even though all countries in South Asia, a lot of Europeans countries have voted women into the most powerful postions in their respective countries.

Can you imagine what the GOP would do to a women candidate for Prez? And you thought the GOP trashed McCain and Kerry...

[Katie_Scarlett]

Well with a woman as president, we might have to worry about nuclear war every 28-30 days ;)

[PunjabiAssassin]

The singles thread has just turned into a Women's thread. Not that I mind ;)

[demiking]

You have gotta be kidding me. I get my period every 28 days and I still go to work and I haven't killed anyone yet.

The fact is that successful men do need a women to support them through their endeavors and enable them to have a family. If a man can do it a women can do it too. Now wishiwas could have it all if she had a husband who took the role of a traditional wife -- good luck finding one.

[Katie_Scarlett]

You have gotta be kidding me. I get my period every 28 days and I still go to work and I haven't killed anyone yet.

The fact is that successful men do need a women to support them through their endeavors and enable them to have a family. If a man can do it a women can do it too. Now wishiwas could have it all if she had a husband who took the role of a traditional wife -- good luck finding one.
Please note the wink in my post. Of course I was kidding. I had hoped that was obvious to anyone reading it. I guess I hoped for too much.

As for needing a man to take the traditional wife role-that would stink. If I wanted to marry a woman, I'd lobby for gay marriage.

[wishiwas]

To demi:

My father was a stay-at-home Dad...perhaps that explains part of why I feel the way I do.

And I am in love with a very accomodating man in the same technical field as me. He supports my career-driven motivation. I know, he is 1 in a million!

[Nic]

Hey Katie, I was in a relationship with a girlfriend for several years where I did all the cooking and a good half of the housework. I'd like to think that didn't make me a surrogate lesbian, and I'm going to refrain from making any bedroom observations! I think the traditional wife role isn't meaningful in understanding contemporary relationships, it reflects a morality and balance of gender and economic power which is not useful anymore.

[Katie_Scarlett]

I think that that's nice, sharing housework and all that. I'm talking about a "stay at home dad". I wouldn't marry one. That's it. It's okay for others, and it works for others, but if I found a man (and I have) that was willing to let my career come first and STAY at home with the kids, I'd kick his emasculated butt to the curb and tell him not to let the door hit him in the rear (which I did). I firmly believe that while I can support a family on my salary alone, we both should be working.

[wishiwas]

Katie,

My sister is a full-time Mom and she and many others believe that children should be raised by family, and not by strangers in day-care.

So it's just a perspective issue. If you both work (or are workaholics like myself), then you will limit your family-time.

[demiking]

I can understand where you are coming from wishiwas. I am happily divorced and have no plans on EVER getting married. I just don't see the point (for me). There are some people who are very happy with their relationships but I have learned that I am not ready to commit. There are so many other things that I want to do and I am not willing to compromise or negotiate for the sake of the relationship. But who knows....life can be tricky. For the time being I will settle for a hot man to scratch my itch.

[Jay3]

Hey I do house work for the pure stress relief of it. Strange as it may seem...but Ironing my clothes helps me unwind from a long day. Its an immediate sense of accomplishment when I see I nicely ironed shirt....unlike work, you never know if your hitting your goals until the numbers come out 3 months later....

In todays society I think you need two incomes especially when raising children in the northeast.....if youre talking outside of this area...like somewhere in the middle states....thats a different story. We just live in an expensive area.